<div dir="ltr">Hi everybody,<div><br></div><div>I had some thought about this format, I already shared them with Bruno but it would be interesting to know what you think about them.</div><div>The most important for me is that this format has to be directly writable/readable by any normal teacher.</div>
<div>What I had in mind when I thought that was the wiki language.</div><div><br></div><div>Then my thought was that to keep it extremely simple we need to have a dedicated syntax per activity.</div><div>Teachers would not need to learn these languages, simply copy paste examples taken from a cookbook and adapt them.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Lets take the example we put in our wiki activity proposition page.</div><div><br></div><div>Here the activity is a MCQ and the question is "find the opposite."</div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class="" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial;font-size:small;line-height:normal"><br>
</span></span></div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><span class="" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial;font-size:small;line-height:normal"> exercice type: MCQ</span><br>
</span></div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Where is the [little|big,red] cat </span></div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">In [ ] are the answers to propose, the first one is the good one).</span><br></div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">You can see that the syntax is extremly easy and can be mastered in a few seconds by teachers.</span></div><div>
<span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div>Lets take now a format to choose pairs of words. The format could be<br><br><div>exercice type: pairs of choices<br>
[3-Blue] [1-Rouge]<br><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">[1-Red<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">] <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">[2-Jaune<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">]<br>
<div>[2-Yellow] [3-Bleu]</div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div>
<br></div><div>Again the format is extremely simple to understand.</div><div>The exercice can be directly typed into a web interface and tested on the flow by the teacher using a web javascript program, and this without the need to plugin into GCompris.</div>
<div>The questions can be directly copyed into JSON without parsing of any type.</div><div><br></div><div>Any comment?</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Emmanuel</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></div><div><span class="" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014-08-24 14:56 GMT+02:00 Inge Wallin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:inge@lysator.liu.se" target="_blank">inge@lysator.liu.se</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:23:02 Bruno Coudoin wrote:<br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> On the GCompris side we are also working on defining a new dataset<br>
> format for the new Qt Quick based version.<br>
><br>
> While we are not specifically addressing language or grammar<br>
> application, we found the need to define a way to create, distribute,<br>
> share and play datasets for specific activities.<br>
<br>
</div>I think it would be a good thing if we could share at least container format and parts of the<br>
library to access it.<br>
<div class=""><br>
> This may be list of words for a hangman, letters for a typing tutor,<br>
> images and voices for language learning tools, a text with holes for a<br>
> reading exercises, ...<br>
<br>
</div>In these cases we should definitely share the format!<br>
<div class=""><br>
> As you can see the type of exercises are very different and we cannot<br>
> end up with a dataset structure common to all of them. Also, an<br>
> important part of the task is to provide a way for teachers to create<br>
> datasets, assign them to children and if they want share them.<br>
><br>
> Based on our requirements we ended up with a a different proposal than<br>
> yours but we are also in the early stage on it, Holger just wrote what<br>
> we came up with in Randa on our wiki:<br>
> <a href="http://gcompris.net/wiki/Dataset_handling" target="_blank">http://gcompris.net/wiki/Dataset_handling</a><br>
><br>
> As you can see in our idea we define a 'datatype' which would be common<br>
> to all and a 'payload' which would be readable only by a given activity<br>
> and and editor following its mime type. Thus the whole infrastructure we<br>
> can set up to manage datasets is not specific to a given type of exercise.<br>
><br>
> Being a Qt Quick application we selected json as the format of choice as<br>
> it is more human readable and native.<br>
<br>
</div>It seems that JSON has been a favourite also on the pure language applications side...<br>
<div class=""><br>
> Also we have not mentioned it in this wiki page but we are already<br>
> distributing in the new GCompris voice files as Qt qrc files. They are<br>
> Qt specific but very easy to manage because you can load them<br>
> dynamically and then access their content through qrc:// url anywhere in<br>
> Qml. To us, 'qrc' is good candidate for the container of the datasets as<br>
> it is Qt native.<br>
<br>
</div>I read up a little on qrc, and it seems that these files are hard-coded resources that are<br>
part of the source code. A resource compiler, rcc, is then used to create C source files that<br>
are later compiled using the normal C/C++ compiler and becomes part of the executable.<br>
<br>
This is a good way to collect parts of the application like icons and similar. But it is not<br>
what the discussion about the new file format is about. We are talking about external data<br>
files that can be downloaded or created after the program is already installed.<br>
<div class=""><br>
> Some feedback on your proposal, I am confused by the 'confidence level'.<br>
> If it is a student mark, it may not be desirable to put it in the<br>
> dataset itself because it make sense to have it on a read only storage<br>
> area (most distros will do that). On this topic at GCompris we are<br>
> interested in a teacher specific tool to help them in their daily usage,<br>
> we starting specifying it there :<br>
> <a href="http://gcompris.net/wiki/Administration_design" target="_blank">http://gcompris.net/wiki/Administration_design</a><br>
<br>
</div>Yes, confidence level is not the ideal term but so far we haven't found anything better.<br>
What it is is the level of confidence that the student has for a particular word. This tries to<br>
capture how strongly the word is put into the memory of the student, or loosely put how<br>
long it can be expected to be before they forget it. If you are not familiar with the term<br>
'spaced repetition training', I urge you to look it up on Wikipedia, they have an excellent<br>
article about it.<br>
<br>
This used to be known as 'grade' in Parley but we are providing a tool for learning and<br>
training, not for testing so grade is not applicable. Besides, grades also have a negative<br>
connotation in that you are a bad person if you have a bad grade. Since any low<br>
confidence level is a necessary step to the higher confidence levels we wanted to get rid<br>
of the grade connotations and that was the best we could come up with. I guess 'mark' is<br>
vaguely similar to grade in this case.<br>
<br>
Would you be interested in sharing the container format with us if we can agree on how we<br>
store the internal data?<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
-Inge<br>
</font></span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
> Bruno.<br>
><br>
> Le 17/08/2014 12:46, Inge Wallin a écrit :<br>
> > Hey there,<br>
> ><br>
> > I talked a little with Andreas Xavier the other day about the new file<br>
> > format, and now with 4.14 tagged we thought it would be a good time to<br>
> > start discussing that.<br>
> ><br>
> > With this mail I will try to establish a common base that I think we can<br>
> > all agree about and with that out of the way we can start to argue about<br>
> > the details. I got a suggestion from Andreas with a very ambitious xsl<br>
> > definition but I think that most of what he suggested is for the next<br>
> > level of discussions.<br>
> ><br>
> > KVTML<br>
> ><br>
> > ---------<br>
> ><br>
> > First a short recapitulation about kvtml, our current file format. It's<br>
> > XML based and has a number of sections represented by the following tags:<br>
> ><br>
> > - <information>: general info such as author, title, etc<br>
> ><br>
> > - <identifiers>: Specification of the languages, including tenses,<br>
> > articles, word classes, etc<br>
> ><br>
> > - <entries>: this is a list of entries, where each entry is a list of<br>
> > translations, which normally is a word with possibly extra data such as<br>
> > attached image, sound, etc<br>
> ><br>
> > - <lessons>: This is what the user normally sees. Each lesson is more or<br>
> > less a list of translations with a title.<br>
> ><br>
> > - <wordtypes>: This is a list of what is normally called word class in<br>
> > linguistics<br>
> ><br>
> > Each identifier (language), entry, translation (=word inside an entry)<br>
> > has an id. The translations refer to the identifiers (languages) using<br>
> > the id and the lessons refer to the words by using the id of the entries.<br>
> ><br>
> > Note that this is the file format itself. Applications such as Parley<br>
> > add an extra dimension to it by letting the user select languages to<br>
> > practice but that is not reflected in the file format.<br>
> ><br>
> > One other notable thing is that each translation (word) has a confidence<br>
> > level (known as "grade" in the file) attached to it. This is a numerical<br>
> > value between 1 and 7 of the confidence that the student has reached in<br>
> > recognizing that particular word. This means that every word can only<br>
> > have one confidence level attached to it which is one of the big<br>
> > problems with kvtml. More about that below.<br>
> ><br>
> > New file format<br>
> ><br>
> > ----------------------<br>
> ><br>
> > The new format needs to address a number of shortcomings in kvtml:<br>
> ><br>
> > - pictures and audio are not contained inside it but are referenced as<br>
> > outside files. This makes it difficult to store lessons on a server,<br>
> > e.g. GHNS, and also to download them<br>
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