<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 3 April 2018 at 10:17, Ben Cooksley <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bcooksley@kde.org" target="_blank">bcooksley@kde.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail-HOEnZb"><div class="gmail-h5">On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:20 AM, Jaroslaw Staniek <<a href="mailto:staniek@kde.org">staniek@kde.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 2 April 2018 at 22:56, Lydia Pintscher <<a href="mailto:lydia@kde.org">lydia@kde.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hey Jaroslaw :)<br>
>><br>
>> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 10:28 PM, Jaroslaw Staniek <<a href="mailto:staniek@kde.org">staniek@kde.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>> > Thanks for reminding me Lydia<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I've not forgotten this. While there's progress I do still see this as a<br>
>> > pilot stage and do not think we're in a hurry given telemetry is<br>
>> > something<br>
>> > "extra" for a project development, not a core feature of any product.<br>
>><br>
>> We are in a hurry now. We're waiting for projects to be able to start<br>
>> using it and get us valuable insights about how our software is used.<br>
>> We've been on it since last Akademy. Let's get it finished :)<br>
>><br>
>> > Below I am referring to this version:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > <a href="https://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Policies/Telemetry_Policy&oldid=78057" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://community.kde.org/<wbr>index.php?title=Policies/<wbr>Telemetry_Policy&oldid=78057</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > tl;dr: Why discussing: Any deep change and limitation to projects'<br>
>> > freedom<br>
>> > needs to bring substantial benefits over drawbacks. Level of complexity<br>
>> > of<br>
>> > the contract for a project or individual developer needs to be balanced<br>
>> > by<br>
>> > real (not hypothetical) benefits.<br>
>><br>
>> The benefits here for KDE are:<br>
>> * we have a<br>
>> better understanding of our userbase leading hopefully to<br>
>> better software<br>
>> * we have a better understanding of our userbase leading hopefully to<br>
>> better marketing<br>
>> * we have a clear policy we can point our users to that explains how<br>
>> we are handling their data and that is in line with our vision/what we<br>
>> stand for.<br>
>><br>
>> > I've studied the wiki page more in depth and I have these points where<br>
>> > I'd<br>
>> > like to see improvement. This is based on my experience, not a list of<br>
>> > quick<br>
>> > ideas.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="https://community.kde.org/Talk:Policies/Telemetry_Policy#" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://community.kde.org/<wbr>Talk:Policies/Telemetry_<wbr>Policy#</a><br>
>><br>
>> Thank you! Volker is probably best equipped to answer these.<br>
>><br>
>> > That said: I will nod to the concept of "Minimalism", it is all classic<br>
>> > property of telemetry. I think I've seen them in other projects too.<br>
>> > I'd just say, let's not make all this more limited than anyone wants it<br>
>> > to<br>
>> > be.<br>
>><br>
>> Where is it too limited? Please keep in mind that we've set<br>
>> privacy as<br>
>> a core part of our vision and the current goals.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Lydia,<br>
<br>
</div></div>Hi Jaroslaw,<br>
<span class="gmail-"><br>
> It's a core part but still a part and can't contradict, say, with the<br>
> Freedom part.<br>
><br>
> Please see the list of limitations:<br>
> <a href="https://community.kde.org/Talk:Policies/Telemetry_Policy#" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://community.kde.org/<wbr>Talk:Policies/Telemetry_<wbr>Policy#</a><br>
> (in my opinion that's not a "nice to haves" but requirements needed so we<br>
> can even call the whole thing "telemetry")<br>
><br>
> I am asking for an alternative approaches, Volker once mentioned there are<br>
> some.<br>
> We need them to we move forward.<br>
><br>
> In the meantime my stack runs just well, people that use IDs are even given<br>
> right to remove their data, something that's *not* going to be possible with<br>
> the proposed vision. Someone would convince me otherwise.<br>
<br>
</span>Please don't drag our websites ability to have people login to them<br>
into your argument here.<br>
Cookies as used by websites are quite different to Telemetry on many points.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Dear Ben, based on your experience I'd like to hear your voice how web apps <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">of any kind </span>are different or are special cases, compared to apps that happen to do the same but do not use the "web" stamp so discussed <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">data collection </span>features are delegate to 3rd-party clients called web browsers. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">How an OPT-IN ID like 2a7c819f-636c-403e-afa1-c9e37031c1de based on random generator[1] is more serious privacy concern than required (login+email+password) non-<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">anonymized </span>tuple for web accounts of web apps of any kind. Please do not take this as pointing to any core infrastructure, I am pointing to specific established technology and practices.</div></div><div> </div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Then do we agree that the purpose of random <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">ID collection</span> is secondary as long as both sides know it and agree on the terms of collaboration? And even: can pull the data out.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">I am calling functional web sites as apps, produced by any KDE projects, hoping that's not seen as dragging. </span>Please do not look at my concern as a criticism towards the web apps because in my opinion apps of any technology have right to use anonymized unique IDs at user's consent for purposes clearly stated to the user to achieve openly explained goals welcomed by the users. Or from a different angle, I see nothing in Freedom that prohibits Free projects to offer such features to Free users unconditionally[2]. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">[1] If separating of independent aspects measured <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">is a concern </span>(e.g. [screen size] from [<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">locale</span>]) unique user can have multiple IDs generated, one per single analyzed group of aspects, to fully decouple one area from another in the raw data (as in example: separating screen size analysis from locale analysis).</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">[2] U<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">nconditionally ==</span> as stated by the Policy point "applications can't tie the availability of unrelated aspects of the application to telemetry being enabled" that looks good to me and is needed. Applications designed to work offline are still 100% functional when run offline right after installation.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Regards,<br>
Ben<br>
<div class="gmail-HOEnZb"><div class="gmail-h5"><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> regards, Jaroslaw Staniek<br>
><br>
> KDE:<br>
> : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators<br>
> : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - <a href="http://kde.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://kde.org</a><br>
> KEXI:<br>
> : A visual database apps builder - <a href="http://calligra.org/kexi" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://calligra.org/kexi</a><br>
> <a href="http://twitter.com/kexi_project" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/kexi_<wbr>project</a> <a href="https://facebook.com/kexi.project" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://facebook.com/kexi.<wbr>project</a><br>
> Qt Certified Specialist:<br>
> : <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/<wbr>jstaniek</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>regards, Jaroslaw Staniek<br><br>KDE:<br>: A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators<br>: and facilitators committed to Free Software development - <a href="http://kde.org" target="_blank">http://kde.org</a><br>KEXI:<br>: A visual database apps builder - <a href="http://calligra.org/kexi" target="_blank">http://calligra.org/kexi</a><br> <a href="http://twitter.com/kexi_project" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/kexi_project</a> <a href="https://facebook.com/kexi.project" target="_blank">https://facebook.com/kexi.project</a><br>Qt Certified Specialist:<br>: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek</a></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div>