<div dir="ltr"><div>Nice :-)</div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Cheers,<br>Shervin Emami.<br></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:48 AM chrys <<a href="mailto:chrys@linux-a11y.org">chrys@linux-a11y.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix">Howdy List,</div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix">related to my mail</div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix">
<blockquote type="cite">- desktop icons
<br>
1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again)
</blockquote>
i just found the following:</div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix"><a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://pointieststick.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/this-week-in-usability-productivity-part-40/" target="_blank">https://pointieststick.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/this-week-in-usability-productivity-part-40/</a></div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix">
<blockquote type="cite">Keyboard navigation <a href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=399566" target="_blank">once again
works properly on the desktop</a> (Eike Hein, KDE Plasma
5.14.1)</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix">it seems that the keyboard navigation
on desktop is fixed again in KDE Plasma 5.14.1.</div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix">that already wipes something from the
list of todos 8-). Thanks Eike! ;).<br>
</div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix">cheers chrys<br>
</div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="m_5935417285932842230moz-cite-prefix">Am 14.10.18 um 21:41 schrieb chrys:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Howdy
Federik, Howdy List,
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Just use phabricator directly,
<br>
</blockquote>
ok i will do so.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Getting KWin and the window switcher to
work was something we did attempt
<br>
before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made
good progress
<br>
with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
<br>
</blockquote>
That would be cool :). its very needed.
<br>
I think the gnome world is doing some magic special style handling
that orca seems to translate this into ATK_STATE_SELECTED state.
<br>
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/commit/7d44c666ff59c437d1e3b7111dc51460f5e33c95" target="_blank">https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/commit/7d44c666ff59c437d1e3b7111dc51460f5e33c95</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I think it would be best for you to find
something that almost works, but for
<br>
example misses some label, just to get started on something that
will be
<br>
rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can
be a bit
<br>
intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to
build and work,
<br>
depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
<br>
</blockquote>
agree. sadly this was a busy weekend. so i was just able to do
some basic tests on KDE 5.14.
<br>
Overall I think its good to prio the following elements:
<br>
- Kicker
<br>
1. application overview: better navigation tab should switch
between panels, arrowing should go to next element in _current_
panel (blind people dont see the visual barriers on the screen, so
the keyboard need to respect them as well)
<br>
2. application overview: "apps and documentation" and
"Miniprograms" don't have an label (maybe this is a good beginner
task and example we want to do)
<br>
3. application starter: does not work with orca here (since it
is the default mode, it would be good if it is accessible))
<br>
4. application starter: make "bookmark" section keyboard
navigable
<br>
- desktop icons
<br>
1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again)
<br>
2. Give them an a11y label
<br>
- task switcher (even if it is more complicated - its an basic
component to use an desktop)
<br>
1. make it able to speak
<br>
<br>
because those components are the most basic for desktop to use it.
if those are working out well. more users will follow to test (and
even maybe more developers in that area). I would pin the list
above (what is not already there) down to phabricator if you are
fine with.
<br>
<br>
more "advanced" stuff like tray area, workspace switcher and
access to individual plasmoids should follow.
<br>
For access to plasmodis i have an cool idea:
<br>
Is there an way to focus an plasmoid via an API? I read about how
to get all running plasmoids. maybe i can bake out an "plasmoid
switcher" where you can focus any element on your desktop via an
hierarchic menu (maybe with some additional information).
<br>
like this:
<br>
pressing an shortcut opens an menu (what represents the containers
on the desktop) and an search box. if you open an menu entry you
get all "child" plasmoids. so plasmoids what are embedded int the
container):
<br>
[search] (type ahead search for plasmoids)
<br>
[Bottom Panel] -> submenu{kicker, window switcher,workspace
switcher, Tray -> {TrayIcon1, TrayIcon2}} (whatever is on Top
Panel)
<br>
[Top Panel] -> submenu{Clock(12:00 AM), Volume(60 %),
Network(WIFI: <SSID> signal 50%)}
<br>
[Desktop] -> submenu{Weather(Cloudy, 12 degrees), Clock(12:00
AM)..... }(what ever is o desktop)
<br>
<br>
pressing enter will focus the selected element. maybe its even
useful for non handicapped power uses users.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if
we can document how to get Orca
<br>
working in general, that would be great!
<br>
</blockquote>
i can do this. i will register a blog as soon as i figured how
(lol) and will write it down there.
<br>
special for KDE users is very useful to know that there is an
shortcut by default to start it ( in fact very awsome!, because it
means starting the screenreader is just one keyboard stroke away).
<br>
<br>
cheers chrys
<br>
<br>
Am 14.10.18 um 10:26 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Chrys,
<br>
<br>
It's awesome to have you on board, reading your mail makes me
very happy :)
<br>
<br>
On fredag 12. oktober 2018 16:06:10 CEST chrys wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Howdy Frederik,
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">You need a general KDE account that
works for everything.
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index" target="_blank">https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index</a>
<br>
is where you should be able to sign up.
<br>
</blockquote>
Yes, strike! :) worked for me. I registered and can login now.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I think we need to write this up a bit
more and then write to the plasma
<br>
mailing list as a first step.
<br>
</blockquote>
so should i do a more detailed list of keyboard navigation
flaws/ needs
<br>
for some basic stuff?should i sent all that stuff to the list?
or should
<br>
i write it directly to the phabricator project? what brings me
to
<br>
another question: am i allowed to comment/ assign stuff (of
course to
<br>
myself) on phabricator? So keep it a little up to date?
<br>
</blockquote>
Just use phabricator directly, it's much better for tracking
purposes and to
<br>
have discussions on individual points. Especially with the
keyboard stuff we
<br>
want to let the plasma developers solve some of the issues since
it can be
<br>
quite tricky and they know the code and should review changes
anyway.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">These should be easy to fix nowadays,
maybe we can try to explain how on
<br>
the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then
let's try to do
<br>
it.
<br>
</blockquote>
ah, thats even a awsome idea! I will search for those an label
as soon i
<br>
can turn on my home computer (i m currently still at work).
<br>
as i remember the window switcher/ workspace switcher doesn't
talk as
<br>
IMO important parts of the desktop (but i also asume its not a
typical
<br>
"missing lable" bug and will require a little more, not sure).
<br>
</blockquote>
Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we
did attempt
<br>
before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made
good progress
<br>
with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
<br>
<br>
I think it would be best for you to find something that almost
works, but for
<br>
example misses some label, just to get started on something that
will be
<br>
rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can
be a bit
<br>
intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to
build and work,
<br>
depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Not that I know of. It's pretty easy
to get a blog registered for
<br>
<a href="http://planet.kde.org" target="_blank">planet.kde.org</a>, I think many people would be happy about
some progress
<br>
reports.
<br>
</blockquote>
ok so i will register a blog there? maybe something like an
"team" blog?
<br>
maybe others wants to blog there as well?
<br>
maybe first thing we should blog should some initial
instruction how to
<br>
make orca run on KDE (requirements, shortcuts, what you
already did at
<br>
mailing list).
<br>
</blockquote>
Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how
to get Orca
<br>
working in general, that would be great!
<br>
<br>
Cheers,
<br>
Frederik
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">cheers chrys
<br>
<br>
Am 11.10.18 um 16:53 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Chrys and everyone,
<br>
<br>
I cut out parts of the mail to focus on what I think is
relevant and try
<br>
to
<br>
answer inline below.
<br>
<br>
On onsdag 10. oktober 2018 23.27.38 CEST
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chrys@linux-a11y.org" target="_blank">chrys@linux-a11y.org</a> wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">For me the major issues i see in
QT/Plasma:
<br>
1. bad keyboard navigation (ho to focus panel, embedded
widgets, tray
<br>
whatever)
<br>
</blockquote>
This is something where the Plasma folks have been very
helpful, I think
<br>
once we talk to them now, they will be even more receptive
to make
<br>
improvements since this comes from users and not just me :)
<br>
I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write
to the plasma
<br>
mailing list as a first step.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">2. a lot of missing a11y names,
labels roles
<br>
</blockquote>
These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to
explain how on
<br>
the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then
let's try to do
<br>
it.>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">3. a11y Performance can be very bad
here sometimes
<br>
</blockquote>
That will be harder to fix, but it's something I can look
into, I think
<br>
this requires filing issues on <a href="http://bugs.kde.org" target="_blank">bugs.kde.org</a> to track, with
steps how to
<br>
reproduce things. Some things may also be easiest to fix in
Orca, let's
<br>
see.>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">4. it also crashes a lot with
screenreader enabled ( for sure orca deas
<br>
not
<br>
hanle everything here gracefully, orcas QT scrips are not
as good tested
<br>
as its GTK script)
<br>
</blockquote>
These I'm interested in, especially if you somehow manage to
generate
<br>
backtraces, so that the issues can be fixed in Qt and or
KDE.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">5. my nasty ezoom issues lol
<br>
<br>
I already read some stuff and found the widgets are mostly
(all?) weitten
<br>
in qml.
<br>
i understood that quite good because no black magic here
:).
<br>
Some useful links to me i want to share because they may
help others too:
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-accessible.html" target="_blank">http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-accessible.html</a>
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-keynavigation.html" target="_blank">http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-keynavigation.html</a>
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma5/QML2/GettingStarte" target="_blank">https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma5/QML2/GettingStarte</a>
<br>
d
<br>
<br>
I currently play with that.
<br>
</blockquote>
Awesome! Please let me know when things are unclear, I can
update the
<br>
docs.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">I think there are some tasks on
phabricator which KDE uses for planning.
<br>
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://phabricator.kde.org/" target="_blank">https://phabricator.kde.org/</a> is the general website,
also used for code
<br>
review.
<br>
<br>
There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/" target="_blank">https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
Yea i already found that and see some stuff like missing
a11y labels or
<br>
keyboard nav here and there. So fits with my observations.
<br>
<br>
But i see no way to register at this website to comment,
create todos or
<br>
send patches? How is the wotkflow here?
<br>
</blockquote>
You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index" target="_blank">https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index</a>
<br>
is where you should be able to sign up.
<br>
<br>
The same credentials should work for phabricator:
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://phabricator.kde.org/auth/start/?next=%2F" target="_blank">https://phabricator.kde.org/auth/start/?next=%2F</a>
<br>
<br>
I hope all of that is accessible!
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">I think the first thing would be
to go through the list and see what is
<br>
current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add
all the things
<br>
</blockquote>
that
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">don't work.
<br>
</blockquote>
Yea. will do that. I wanted to take a look in kickers
favorite/
<br>
bookmark keyboard nav first. Sounds not so complex as i m
a beginner
<br>
in QT/ QML / Plasma world.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Ideally we also manage to blog
about this to get some more attention :)
<br>
</blockquote>
Thats an realy cool idea! Is there already something like
a KDE a11y
<br>
blogging section or category ?
<br>
</blockquote>
Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog
registered for
<br>
<a href="http://planet.kde.org" target="_blank">planet.kde.org</a>, I think many people would be happy about
some progress
<br>
reports.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">It should indeed find more publicity
in fact most huge issues for
<br>
blind guys are a oneliner by an good dev :/. So much
issues can be
<br>
wiped out when devs know how to care about that. With the
nice side
<br>
effect that automated testing works as well :). Even users
need to
<br>
know that the situation improves. Thats why many impaired
people dont
<br>
use or even try KDE. Because in there brain is still
„nothing works
<br>
there for me“ and this is just wrong i think. A lot of
great work
<br>
already happend at this sector already.
<br>
</blockquote>
Yes, we just need a bit more mind-share and pointing out the
issues,
<br>
people
<br>
are very willing to help but often just a bit clueless.
Let's assume good
<br>
faith, I haven't met anyone in KDE who was opposed to making
things more
<br>
accessible.
<br>
<br>
Cheers,
<br>
Frederik
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Cheers, greez from germany
<br>
<br>
Chrys
<br>
<br>
Zitat von Frederik Gladhorn <a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gladhorn@kde.org" target="_blank"><gladhorn@kde.org></a>:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Chrys,
<br>
<br>
I'll answer your mail inline, below.
<br>
<br>
On torsdag 23. august 2018 10.16.15 CEST
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chrys@linux-a11y.org" target="_blank">chrys@linux-a11y.org</a> wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Howdy list,
<br>
<br>
My name is chrys. I m a visual impaired guy from
germany. I m new to
<br>
this list.
<br>
Since Gnome gets more and more crippled i decide to
change to KDE/
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
Plasma.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">And it was one of best decisions
I did. Plasma is awsome and i wont
<br>
miss it now (lol).
<br>
I use KWins zoom plugin.
<br>
</blockquote>
Great to hear that the zooming works :)
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">My girlfrind is blind. She
currently switched to Mate for the same
<br>
reason like me. Mate is pretty accessible. But there
are a lot of
<br>
stuff missing what we would suspect from an modern
desktop (search in
<br>
menu and those stuff).
<br>
Plasma has all that. So i decide to try plasma using
Orca.
<br>
My results: Its very slow, unstable and often hard to
navigate. But it
<br>
worked at all! thats more that i was suspecting. What
tells me that
<br>
the plasma shell already exposes the needed
information to the at-spi
<br>
(cool).
<br>
Impressed by that results, I want start fixing up
stuff for KDE/
<br>
Plasma/ QT a11y to make work for her (and ohters) one
day.
<br>
So i read
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved#Accessibility" target="_blank">https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved#Accessibility</a>
<br>
and
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Accessibility" target="_blank">https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Accessibility</a>
<br>
what brings me to the point to say hello here in the
list :).
<br>
</blockquote>
Wow, amazing! That means our efforts did pay off. This
is really
<br>
exciting
<br>
</blockquote>
to
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">read. I hope we can quickly
improve things.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Sadly information is very rare
in a11y stuff (not only for KDE). Thats
<br>
why i want to find others who maybe already have
knowledge to Mentor
<br>
me or wants to work together with me to raise the
motivation and fun
<br>
<br>
:). on my way to get touched with that.
<br>
<br>
So:
<br>
1. Is there someone out there who wants to join my
effort?
<br>
</blockquote>
Yes, I've been trying to get things working for a long
while, but I
<br>
</blockquote>
cannot do
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">this alone (neither time nor
energy wise).
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">2. Is there someone out there
who can Mentor me a bit for my first
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
steps?
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I'm happy to do that, sorry for
the late reaction, I was generally busy
<br>
lately.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">3. Is there an effort what
already exists what i can maybe join?
<br>
</blockquote>
I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE
uses for planning.
<br>
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://phabricator.kde.org/" target="_blank">https://phabricator.kde.org/</a> is the general website,
also used for code
<br>
review.
<br>
<br>
There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
<br>
<a class="m_5935417285932842230moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/" target="_blank">https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/</a>
<br>
<br>
I think the first thing would be to go through the list
and see what is
<br>
current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add
all the things
<br>
</blockquote>
that
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">don't work.
<br>
<br>
Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some
more attention :)
<br>
<br>
Cheers,
<br>
Frederik
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">cheers chrys
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote></div>