<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">2014-05-04 7:13 GMT+02:00 Inge Wallin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:inge@lysator.liu.se" target="_blank">inge@lysator.liu.se</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">On Sunday, May 04, 2014 06:18:45 Thorsten Zachmann wrote:</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> On Monday, April 28, 2014 10:31:45 PM Inge Wallin wrote:</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > * Represent styles as text attributes wherever possible so that they can</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > be</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > complete, i.e. not throw away style data.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> I'm not conviced that this is a good idea. We tried to do that with the</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> KoUnavailShape to prevent what we can't save but as far as I remeber LO and</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> OO where unfortunately not able to load the stuff we saved back.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
</div><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">I analyzed that later and that was because we saved back all files but did not save back empty subdirectories (used in charts if I remember correctly). I created a patch for that and I think it's committed but I'm not 100% sure.</p>
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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> Also saving back styles might result in unwanted behaviour. See the</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> following example:</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> User 1 creates a document with styles in LO.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> User 2 loads the document with calligra.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> User 2 copy and pastes something with unsupported formating options.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> User 2 formats it as he wants it to be. (however as he copied something he</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> can't see he also has a format in there which will result in something</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> different then expected when loaded)</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> User 2 save</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> User 1 loads in LO and the formating of the pasted text is not what User 2</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> wanted.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> Sure if User 2 only fixes a typo this is not a problem but if a user really</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> works with a document it can happen in quite a lot supricing side effects</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> the user can't forsee and therefore I against this.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
</div><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">This scenario is indeed possible and not good. But I believe that it would be less common than the following scenario (given your suggestion to not save unsupported formatting):</p>
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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> User 1 creates a document with styles in LO.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> User 2 loads the document with calligra.</p>
</div><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> User 2 copy and pastes something with unsupported formating options and the unsupported formatting is removed by calligra.</p>
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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> User 2 formats it as he wants it to be</p>
</div><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> User 2 save</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> User 1 loads in LO and the formating of the pasted text is now different from the rest of the text in the document.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">My reasons for believing this is:</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> * Calligra does already support almost all formatting and any formatting that we don't support is pretty exotic and therefore almost certainly by design in the document.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> * Most documents only contain a limited set of styles. And almost all of the text in a typical document is going to use pretty standard formatting - which calligra already supports.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> * So any unsupported formatting is something that User 1 wants.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">And even if your scenario plays out then removing some formatting from a lot of text is going to be much easier than reapplying it to the specific parts that need it (removing formatting that isn't already there is a null operation).</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">And funnily enough I came across a bug of exactly this type yesterday on the documentliberation-discuss mailing list: <a href="https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77855" target="_blank">https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77855</a></p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">As you can see from the screenshots this is quite serious and only one example.</p><div class="">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> There are interdependencies between styles that can't be saved by in the way</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> you described as it will need to update references and so on. Also I could</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> not find something in the specification that says a reader/writer should</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> support stuff he does not understand.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
</div><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Hmm, what interdependencies between styles do you mean? I know that there are interdependencies between individual attributes (e.g. you cannot get border-left from one style and border-right from its parent) but not between styles.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">But fixing this has nothing to do with being complete per se. It's orthogonal to it. I do think that we should create a list of interdependent attributes and make sure that we have a generic way of handling it.</p>
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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > * Implement a binary interface for some (in the long run all) attributes</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > so</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > that we retain the advantages of that (mostly speed).</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> If we go the route you propose then I would propose to add the new stuff as</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> addition to what is there.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
</div><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Agreed. Implementation wise we should throw away as little working code as possible.</p><div class="">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > * Because all our apps use DOM parsing now (even if stream reading is</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > used</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > under the hood) and many filters use stream parsing, I want to provide</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > both</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> > variants of the loadOdf() method.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> More code means more bugs so I'm not really convinced here. At least quite</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> a lot of testing for that is needed.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
</div><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Yes, testing is important. I am willing to write test code to test retaining properties of styles in different roundtrip scenarios. And for visuals we have cstester.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Note, though, that the alternative to doing this is not *not* writing the new parsing code. It's writing even more code because the stream parsing API is already used by the filters. So instead of just adding load/saveOdf(KoStreamReader &) to existing objects we will have to write completely new objects to store the same thing. For already existing examples of this, see all classes in filters/libodf2/ which do not start with KoOdf. There is a description of it in the README.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">And I am not suggesting that the code using these objects already (i.e. the applications) move from dom parsing to stream parsing. I only want to reuse code that is already working well in new situations - in this case the filters.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">But again I think this is two discussions mixed into one. The two different issues are:</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">1. Shall we introduce a policy to keep also unsupported formatting and save it back? This will demand a slightly different base implementation of styles and will indeed demand a lot of testing.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">2. Shall we allow two different load/saveOdf() API's in the already existing objects so they can be also used in the filters?</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Issue 1 is the big one. Issue 2 is much smaller and is what you are replying to in the paragraph just above. </p><div class="">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> So I'm not really convinced this is a good idea.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
</div><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Noted. Any opinions from other people?</p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Speaking only of issue 1 now, and from a user POV.)</div>
<div> <br></div><div>I think Inge's argument is more compelling. While the issue Thorsten brought up is certainly valid, it seems more specific compared to the whole class of issues that arise from not retaining unsupported formatting.</div>
<div><br></div><div>And couldn't the copy/paste issue be partly mitigated by informing the user that the document contains unsupported formatting? Perhaps also with a short bullet list popup on what this means in practice (including the copy/paste dangers)?</div>
<div><br></div><div>In the end, if two authors are ping-ponging a document between suites with different feature sets, there will always be a risk of unhappiness one way or another. No way around that. I guess it's just about minimizing the damage here. If it's technically possible, perhaps it could even be made user configurable by introducing a "Strict Calligra" vs "Interoperability" mode for the saving? (not sure about that though).</div>
<div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Elvis</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:'Sans Serif';font-size:11pt;font-weight:400;font-style:normal">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> -Inge</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> Thorsten</p></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>